It could have been an accident. His laughing may have been a nervous laugh. I undestand that you were in pain, and that it's next to impossible to do anything but react when you're in severe pain. Your perception of the situation in that moment, though, may not have been completely accurate. I'm not saying you were wrong; just that there are other possibilities.

Please!  There are a million granola eating, bleeding heart mommas out there that will tell you that there's no way a 5 year old would have done that with malicious intent, BULLSHIT.  I have known little bastards with little or no dicipline from their parents (because they think it'll scar the kid or "affect his/her emotional growth" pffft) that would and HAVE happily pushed other kids down flights of stairs, stabbed them with pencils and attacked adults with various hard and soft objects when reprimanded.  Now, the way I look at it, if YOU"RE not going to try to shape your kid into some semblance of a human being, I'm not beholden to treat them like one, ESPECIALLY in my own home.  I would have taken the toy away again, demanded an apology from the little freak and turfed them to the curb.

if you did something that you weren't sorry for and someone demanded that you apologize for it, what would you do? what if it was someone who thought you were rotten and maniacal and couldn't stand you? what if that person was literally several times your size? what if they then physically picked you up and grabbed something you were using right out from under you?

there is only 1 person in this entire world that you can control and that it yourself. it's definitely frustrating when kids don't do what you want them to. it's easy to think "they're kids! they are small! they should do what i tell them to!" but they are human beings too and they don't see it that way.

that said, if the mom was that upset, she should have packed up and left. she also should not have gotten the scooter out of the room and given it back. it's not okay for someone to go behind a closed door in your home, no matter what the reason.

If I were the mom I would have instantly got my kid in trouble, made him appologize and feel like crap that my kid was such a rotten kid.  But I also HATE when other people tell my kids what to do... it's MY JOB, not theirs.  So I see the both points of view.  I think you should have let the kid know that it really hurt, but that's it.  Maybe you should have stopped playing with this kid.  You can't demand for an appology, that's true.  That's something the kid should have given to you of his own will, or his mom (that is supposed to teach him to be polite) to do.  It is not your job to teach other people's kids.  Even a teacher in the presence of the parents shouldn't tell kids what to do.... Parents are the primary teachers.   You stepped over the line, and that was the problem.  But you were probably just reacting to the pain... And then you saw this kid as your own, since you hang out with them a lot.  

First time here, clicked over from... honestly I have no idea. Something about Mariah Carey and booze in breastmilk.

This was a great question and you were very candid and descriptive!

The short answer I think is that your wife is right. The kid was wrong. But you could have handled your interaction with the CHILD better. Calmer. A bit more gently.

If I were that mother and my child behaved that way I would first of all be embarassed and apologetic in my own right. Sometime sgood kids are brats and we all have our moments but whether they're "acting out" or just general jerks you still have to parent to the moment, and she didn't.

And I like to think that you wouldn't have even had the time to get in my kid's face, speak harshly to him and put your hands on my child because I would have been right there reprimanding, instructing and disciplining (which would have included demanding an apology and confiscating the toy used to cause injury, regardless of my child's intent) BUT (!!) if I was a beat or two slow on the uptake?

I'd be upset about the way you spoke to and laid hands on my kid (removing him from the toy. You could have verbally demanded the child get off the toy so you could take it away and if he refused then you ask the parent to get the jerk off of your property. Maybe using other words...). And yeah, I'd probably want an apology for that, and unless we could have a frank conversation about it and you admitted that you dealt with the situation in a manner that was other than ideal and would make an effort not to do so again, I likely wouldn't want to hang out with you anymore either. And I definitely wouldn't let you alone with my kid (not that you ever want to BE alone with this little bruiser). But I also think that conversation could be had civilly and with no tears threatening from any party, except perhaps from my kid while he enjoyed his time out up against some wall in your hallway.

It's my job to protect my kid from what I consider to be inappropriate influences and situations and I would consider the way you spoke to and handled the child inappropriate. That's MY value system and MY parenting philosophy and MY comfort level and even the best of friends oftentimes make very different parents. Which is fine, you just have to be clear with folks about what types of interactions you deem unacceptable Even regarding her "no you talk to ME" moment, she wasn't ever clear what it was she objected to, which is a while other issue.

 I think you got her momma bear hackles up and she was vibrating (loved that descriptor) because she was trying to keep herself from ugly crying while simultaneously going all Real Housewives with the face clawing all up in your dinner party. And while I personally am fine with another parent gently attempting to correct my child when they misbehave, (they have to learn to take instruction from adults other than their parents, I believe) some people aren't, and it sounds like maybe you didn't know her well enough to make that call, or if you thought you did you called it wrong.

And frankly it doesn't sound like what you did was gently correct. You were kinda mean. To a 5 year old. Because he bruised your ankle.

While I'd recommend a deep breath or two to let the moment pass the next time something similar happens to you in order to avoid reacting to a small child from a place of very adult-sized anger, pain and/or frustration, I do get where you were coming from.

The kid's a twerp.

But the mom was wrong for making you feel like you don't have the right to set rules in your own home, and to decide which toys are and are not appropriate for a child that's proven themselves incapable of playing with them responsibly. Of course that's your call!! To give the child back the toy that you the host removed, is inexcusable. I find that completely appalling. To not demand an apology from the child, accident or not (Life lesson: we still go to jail for running people over accidentally, Junior.) is ridiculous and just bad parenting.

I think what you really need to ask yourself at this point is, based on both the parenting skills and lack of respect displayed for your home, rules and property by this family as a whole (way to practice your avoidance while drinking other people's booze in the kitchen, Damian's Dad!), do you even want YOUR kids influenced by this family?

I wouldn't. Personally.

Great blog! I'll be back.

I'm very surprised that anyone here has a problem with this.  You weren't telling the mother what to do with her kid - you were telling the kid what to do in your own home and in your personal space, your leg.   

In the end, you can't anticipate the particular parenting preferences of every parent.  If that was my kid, and you went to me instead of dealing with the kid directly, then I would have thought you were a bit of a wet blanket.   But that's what this mother is asking you to do - for you to ingratiate yourself by running to her to dob on her son, like some little kid tattling on another kid.  How are you meant to guess what each parent wants you to do? Why should you?  Just do what you would want other parents to do if your kids did that to them and be ready to deal with the consequences if the parents happen to be morons. 

I had a vaguely similar situation.  A group of little kids at the park were throwing rocks around, hitting each other sometimes, and some had landed periliously close to a little toddler (not mine, my kid was staying well away).   Their parents weren't in sight and everyone else was obviously observing this stupid rule of "don't tell off other people's kids!"   After unsuccessfully telling them to stop it with my nice voice, I took the rocks away and I used my business voice (some might call it yelling) to tell them that if they had a problem with that they could get their parents to discuss it with me, because I was done trying to reason with them.    The kids parents never came to speak to me - if they had, I would not have apologised for yelling at their kids nor cared if they were upset.  And though in this case it was other young children at risk of being hurt, I'd have just as much right to do that if the rocks were being thrown at me.   So I think you were totally right to stand up for yourself against the aptly nicknamed Damian. 

I had a more clear-cut run in with another Mama Bear, and I can tell you without a doubt... when faced with this kind of parent, there was no right way for you to handle the situation.... no matter how correct and justified your reaction was.

Loved your post. We've all been there. I think it is much more complicated with other folks' kids, because every parent has an instinctive response to protect her child.

Unfortunately, in social situations, we are not always there to intervene, and other parents are. When you have a parent who sits at the table with her glass of wine instead of engaging with the kids, that leaves you on the front lines. I know that role well.

I personally ruptured (and later repaired) a close friendship because I intervened with the child of a friend. I still think I was right, but of course, I was setting limits with someone else's child. Instead, I should have gone to the mother and made her do the hard work of setting limits, instead of taking it on myself. I also had an incident when I more or less threw a relative out of my house because of an altercation with my child. Again, 17 years later, I still think I was right -- but I am very sorry I wasn't calm enough to resist that impulse. These are two of the four worst incidents in my 20 years of parenting. Interestingly, every one of those four incidents involved OTHER peoples' children, not my own. I think that while our own children push our buttons, we also are more likely to understand them and see the best in them. We don't always have that same depth of empathy for other kids.

Bottom line: We never make good decisions when we're in a state of "fight or flight." The self-discipline of saying "Ouch!" and removing ourselves is always essential. Despite what it feels like, there is no emergency, no immediate need for action. We can limp away into the bathroom and give ourselves five minutes to breath deeply, remind ourselves that there are many ways to see every situation, and regulate our own emotions.

Then we go to the Mom and explain that the scooter is not for use in the house because accidents are too easy with this many people. Tell her that we know she'd like to be the one to remove the scooter and help her child with his disappointment over losing it. Then put the scooter in the master bedroom and shut the door.

And of course, we can also try to see the best in everyone. We've all made mistakes. I'm not excusing the five year old's action, but it may well have been an accident that he responded to with nervous laughter and fright. Many kids freeze in such a situation and can't summon the courage for an apology.

In fact, since you are the guy who gets on the floor and rough-houses with the neighborhood kids, this child may have been trying to initiate a play session with you, clumsy as he was. He may have had no idea that you would be hurt -- he probably ranks you up there with Superman!

I enjoyed how you told your story...and sorry you had this situation. My higher self (though if it happened to me..might be a different story ;)) would think the best response would be a quick reminder that 1. Kids are not little adults with a history of adult experiences (you and damian were not seeing this the same way) 2. This particular kid was raised with other family values than your own.

After the 'accident', I might have said "Ouch that really hurt" and offered little Damian the opportunity to help you with an ice-pack and nurse you back to health.  If this was successful, and you made a big fuss at what a good helper he was and how powerful he was making a good decision to help you, he would feel wonderful and learn a little about empathy. (You'd have to let go of thinking that he will seek out creating scooter accidents to recreate this magical moment in the future though) ...child behave how they feel, right?

If he refused, and you could get another child or adult to assist you with the ice pack, he would witness you having a pleasant relationship with your assistant(s) and maybe want to join in.

If your proposal completely flopped, you could have said you need to take care of your injury and as the grown-up you would have to take the scooter with you to make sure everyone was safe and you would come back later to discuss scooter safety and scooter rules, with a very matter of fact tone.

Laughing at "trouble" is a learned response b/c it's a successful button pusher and the kid probably felt you were on equal ground with him as your emotions became charged...what a fun game to a child who seeks out intense (negative)  situations because he may not be getting enough intense (positive) relationship with others. Insisting on an apology was not appropriate. Apologies come from feeling empathy...and a sincere apology is what you really wanted. You can rush discipline

As for the emotional mother, I'd have a conversation which explained that you've been reflecting on the incident because you're still thinking about it many days later and share your new insights with honesty and compassion.

I posted this quote on facebook this week and feel it's appropriate here

"Don't worry that children never listen to you; worry that they are always watching you." ~Robert Fulghum

Thanks for sharing your story!

I would have definately handled it differently. Maybe I'm just a natural jerk, but I wouldn't allow the kid to use the scooter again until he apologizes. His mom isn't the dictator of toys at my house. That's my job. :)

If he never says he's sorry, he never gets to use the scooter again, simple as that. That way it's completely up to the kid how it plays out. That sets a clear expectation for him (and his mom). And more importantly, it shows the other kids there are consiquences for their actions. And seriously, he's only being asked to apologize, which is a fairly light requirement.

I figure if it was on purpose, the right thing to do, like you said, is to make it right by apologizing. If it was an accident, I would want reassurance he'll try to be more careful, since he just proved he can be reckless with a scooter (again, acomplished by an apology). What if it had been a pet or one of the other kids he hit instead of you? It's not just a jerk kid issue at play here, but an issue of safety for other kids too.

And there's really no reason for the mom to be angry with you. Raising your voice when you're in pain is a perfectly reasonable response. No doubt if you'd waited to speak until the pain had subsided, your tone would have been different. But I don't think it's nessessarily a negative thing for a kid to learn by experience that people in pain raise their voice. It's a good lesson to learn before they hurt someone with less self control and get loud and violent when in pain.

I've dealt with a few people like that in my network of friends. No matter how "right" you react, it'll still be wrong because the parent is embarrassed by their kid's actions, not truly offended by yours.

For what it's worth, I've actually had to deal with a friend's son who has the same issues. He's a cronic liar and likes to hurt things, but his parents don't have any consiquences for it. I've literally watched him hit one of my boys, and by the time I walked over to him he was trying to convince me that he was across the yard at the time. Unbelieveable! After several more incidents, I eventually had to tell his mom he's not allowed to visit anymore. I hated to do it, it destroyed our friendship (she didn't talk to us for over six months), and I felt like a jerk the whole time. At some point every parent has to draw that line in the sand, and I think it's best to do it before something tragic happens rather than after.

Hi,

I've read through your query and the responses with great interest and just wanted to say how wonderful it is to read child-related information in such a non-judgemental way....there are a number of differing opinions here but not once have I felt like I wanted to stop reading because the comments were getting nasty/unfriendly. 

My children are 2 years old and 7 months old and I must admit I do find it hard when other people discipline my older one, but I know it's something I just have to get used to as I do it myself with other kids when needed.  Also my step-nephew is 5 and sounds very similar to Damien so this has given me some new ideas in dealing with his behaviour. 

Thank you for putting these kinds of discussions out there and I hope things work out for the best in the long run with this family :)
 

I don't know what the appeal in demanding an apology is.  "Say sorry!"  Why?  Kids can repeat things and have them be as meaningless as when we do it as adults.  We don't do forced apologies at our house, so if this happened with one my kids I don't think they would know how you wanted them to react.  Instead of a forced apology the "offender" checks on the other person ("Are you okay?")  They express what they were thinking/feeling ("I didn't see you standing there in the hallway.")  They do something to make the other person feel better ("How can I help you feel better?  Do you need a cold pack/bandaid?"  Drawing a picture, giving a hug, etc. are also options)  Then, they explore alternatives ("Next time I will try to ride my trike slower." or "Next time I will be more careful to watch where I'm going.")  This doesn't happen independently, but I think it's a lot more meaningful to them than simply repeating a directed phrase.

If you were to demand an apology from one of my kids in a harsh voice, I would guess that they would end up upset.  I would probably end up consoling them.  It might look like I was "coddling" them or in some way saying what happened was okay.  That isn't the case.  Even if the child insisted what happened was an accident, we still check on the person, try to help them out, and plan for next time.  I feel like doing it that way helps the child verbalize what's going on.  If that happened with one of my kids I would probably be upset, too.  First, I don't think we need to scold kids in a harsh voice.  I think that they stop listening when adults talk that way.  I also think that if you're going to raise your voice you should at least try to say something that helps the situation.  Your solution really was only you wanting to control his reaction.  I don't think you were teaching him anything.  If you're going to interact with my kid in that situation at least try to be effective.

You were correct in responding authentically (i.e expressing pain, raising your voice). You were within your rights to indicate that the scooter was not going to be played with any longer (though, physically lifting someone else's child & saying "you're done with this" without eliciting the mother's permission & explaining to child what you were doing & why, was a over the limit), I think your main problem was here:

“You hurt me. Say sorry,” I demanded.

No one - NO ONE - wants to apologize on demand. And pretty much any human who is accused will go immediately into defense mode - it's human nature. I read the child's laughter as a defense mechanism; he had no choice.

Do you apologize on demand? Would your wife ever expect that of you? Or do you prefer to hear out the other person's feelings & point of view, to have a moment to internalize the situation, mull it over a bit, take it in, and formulate how you'd like to respond?

You are the adult here, he is the kid. You should have & model self control. You should be able to clearly & concisely convey your feelings without anger, calmly define which rules were broken, and state the consequences (along with the reasons for the consequences). If the child didn't heed your consequences (getting off the scooter), you should have gone to his mother.

Thank you for asking mommas for feedback. We often have something to share... :)
 
As a mom who spent lots of time being over protective I can relate to both sides of this situation. I set my children up for failure through taking the victim stance myself - and with them. That was what I knew in life, though, and I did not realize it until some big wake up calls occurred in my life. I had, like many others, experienced abuse as a kid and gathered other wounds as I grew up. They followed me into parenthood. I have no idea if the parents you discussed have any similiar background, but it's possible they are protective because they're trying to avoid repeating something they experienced. Such parents can be very sensitive when their child is talked to harshly, even if the situation seems warranted. They probably feel pretty bad about themselves if they respond harshly to the child.

I agree with your wife and others that the tone of voice makes a difference. It's pretty natural to respond harsly to pain, especially from someone smaller than them. It is something we can work through, though, as to not exasperate the already off-balance child. I mean off-balance in the most respectful way. Children have a lot to tend with in life and becoming off-balance is easier for some than others - so many life factors influence a child's behavior. A lack of respectful accountabilty definitely contributes to a child's behavior. If there's no "checks and balances" they often continue doing things that may not be helpful for them or anyone else.

Telling the kid to say he's sorry is over stepping bounds for some and right on for others. In families or groups where a quick apology helps everyone move forward your request is welcome. For parents who don't want to force or expect children to apologize, asking for an apology is not the thing to do. People who believe in a healing process of harm-apology-forgiveness may have trouble understanding why a parent wouldn't just guide a child to apologize. It often has to do with believing the child should not be forced to do/think/feel anything and that the child will come around to apologize when he/she truly feels it. This does occur and there are times when accountability in the moment is helpful for everyone. There's a lot to this and I feel it stems from a bottom line of not wanting to force the child. It doesn't sound like you were trying to force him - you were just communicating what you wanted in the experience.

In a future situation you could explain how you feel and what you want without making the child wrong. It also sounds like talking with both the parents and the child is best with this family. If you have a close relationship with someone it might be okay to address the child directly, but some parents are sensitive to that. I've come full circle with it, unless the adult is disrespectful with the child, I would prefer the child and adult work out differences directly.

I do feel as adults that we can offer children a model of calm confidence - even in stressful moments. When we do this we are providing guidance in more than one way and it makes a difference. If we're all crabby or blaming then the child feels it and some can be very resistant to doing what we want them to do.

If your friendship is important consider thinking about what you can glean from this situation. How does it serve or help you become more clear as a parent or friend or friend to children? What are you learning about yourself? When you see this mother again, talk to her - human to human. Inquire into her experience and how you can meet halfway.

One thing you both have in common for sure - you want the best for the kids. There's likely a meeting place in that commonality.  Love to you and yours.

Ok, What was the mother thinking?  She was thinking..... My child accidentally ran into the man's leg., The man reacts because of his pain without it occurring to him that this is a child of five..,.that doesn't have the self esteem or courage.... so he smiled, maybe because he didn't know how to handle it...., my child is shy...,., and she would feel embarrassed and either hide behind me and cry or just hide..., and I would try to tell her to say she is sorry for the accident, however, my child just won't speak when put on the spot due to her embarrassment...I can understand the pain behind the mom....because she may be thinking my child is not a mean or spoiled child, it was an accident and my child being a child didn't know how to handle it.... which is when the mom should step in and say, speak for the child... and then tell the child to please be more careful..  Thank you.

I think you are right in saying that she was very upset probably with your tone and how you handled it., and I think that she was not very mature either, enas to the way she handled it.  I think that this child if he tends to bully others., may mean, that he may be getting abused himself from someone., and that the laughter that he showed in which you read as actually enjoying hurting you would probably make me think that there is definately something going on in his head. 

However, to be honest, in life there are too many little things that bother people,...I would say, if you like these people somewhat., get to know them more., and also forgive them and accept them for who they are.  This life is too short to get angry over little things and how people raise their kids... I know that I just concern myself with how I raise my kids and try to be the best parent I can be and as we all know..., parenting is the hardest thing I have ever done.  Good luck.  I wish you the best!!!

This is one that I think has no solidified answer. It's really based on the relationship of the parents, and how the other parents discipline their kids. Some of my neighbors are quick to discipline my kids, but they never discipline their own. I don't appreciate that. Not at all. And if anyone says something to their kids, then they cause a big stink! 

I think you taking the scooter away was the best thing you could do. And if the mom gave it back to him, I would have taken it right back. it's an uncomfortable situation, but the dynamic is a difficult one, because people are very particular about their kids. I would have appreciate your actions towards my kids, but that's because I believe in discipline. 

I applaud your actions in disciplining the kid. Unfortunately that little Damian might have a tough adulthood not having any discipline or teachings of respect.